Jo Walton ([info]papersky) wrote,
@ 2009-06-08 11:05:00
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Caffeine
I don't think I drink too much caffeine, and I was astonished to see people suggesting it could be a problem. This is a brief overview of what I already knew, the summary is:

"A 5-oz cup of coffee contains on average 80mg of caffeine (the range is typically 40 to 170 mg depending on the type of brew). Whereas Black tea contains on average 40mg, Oolong tea 30mg, Green tea 20mg, and decaffeinated tea only 2mg of caffeine. Herbal teas usually don't contain any caffeine."

It goes on to explain how you can take 90% of the caffeine out of tea yourself at home by discarding the first brew, which I always do for Pu Er and Oolong, which in any case I drink maybe once a week. So normally, I'm drinking four mugs of green tea over the course of a day, which is the equivalent of 80mg caffeine, or one mug of coffee. If I have a headache or if I'm tired, again maybe once a week, I'll have a mug of Earl Grey, so that would be about 100mg those days.

I switch to tisanes at 15h00 (3pm).

Does this really sound to people like a caffeine problem?

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[info]txanne
2009-06-08 03:15 pm UTC (link)
No, that doesn't sound like a caffeine problem.

Why do you discard the first brews of Pu Er and Oolong?

(Reply to this) (Thread)

[info]papersky
2009-06-08 03:51 pm UTC (link)
They're too strong. You get better taste and less caffeine by "washing" the leaves that way. Some people do it for all tea, but those are the only ones where I notice a difference.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)
(no subject) - [info]txanne, 2009-06-08 05:12 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]papersky, 2009-06-08 06:58 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]txanne, 2009-06-08 07:14 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]papersky, 2009-06-08 09:10 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]txanne, 2009-06-08 09:34 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]casacorona, 2009-06-08 07:40 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]papersky, 2009-06-08 09:09 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]jenett, 2009-06-08 10:15 pm UTC (Expand)
discarding first flush - [info]pir_anha, 2009-06-09 04:29 am UTC (Expand)
Re: discarding first flush - [info]papersky, 2009-06-09 11:19 am UTC (Expand)
Re: discarding first flush - [info]sylvia_rachel, 2009-06-09 01:30 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]jenett
2009-06-08 03:17 pm UTC (link)
Do you see any changes in how you feel based on time of day/how long since the last caffinated tea? It might be worth tracking to see if there are any other patterns that show up.

(For me, I've found several worthwhile things improve if I'm very light on the caffeine intake, so I watch it - but they're things like 'better sleep' and 'my adrenal system is not quite so annoyed at me'.

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[info]papersky
2009-06-08 03:52 pm UTC (link)
I get better sleep if I quit it at 15h00, which is why I do. Otherwise it doesn't seem to correlate with much except that there are certain sorts of headaches it helps.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

[info]deborahjross
2009-06-08 03:25 pm UTC (link)
I think caffeine is one of the safest pharmaceutically-active substances (aka drugs) around, and the amounts you're talking about are quite small. Most of the "research" linking caffeine to disease has been disproven, and it may actually lower the risk of some conditions. Its ability to improve alertness and concentration are well established.

Besides that, we have mounting evidence for the evidence for protective and beneficial effects of the phytochemicals in tea. Despite all this, some people treat caffeine consumption as a moral failing or a serious addiction. Or perhaps they object to pleasurable activities of any sort?

I'd say -- enjoy your tea, caffeine and all! (I certainly do, typically a cup of black tea in the morning, and green tea -- hot or iced -- until dinner time.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

[info]annafdd
2009-06-08 03:48 pm UTC (link)
Thank you! I am a happy caffeine addict and while I can live without, I live much, much better with it. And my migraine doctor never suggested it as a problem, either. (The real problem there was fluctuation in blood sugar levels.)

(Reply to this) (Parent)
(no subject) - [info]houseboatonstyx, 2009-06-09 10:24 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]deborahjross, 2009-06-09 02:55 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]deborahjross, 2009-06-09 02:58 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]torrilin
2009-06-08 03:27 pm UTC (link)
Green tea in particular varies *wildly* in the amount of caffeine. It's kind of notorious for it, and depending on what you've got and how you respond to the drug package, it can be worse than coffee. Drug package, because in at least some humans, tea seems to have a host of drugs, some of which promote high energy levels (like caffeine), others which act as antagonists to the uppers.

It's complicated stuff, and the biochemistry is not well understood... and since it's in humans, figuring out the mechanisms is fraught.

For the *average* human, I'd say that's an entirely reasonable intake. But you're a specific human being, not a hypothetical average one... and individual humans have individual responses that can change over time. Tracking your intake may be worthwhile if the doctors can't scare up a better explanation.

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

[info]antonia_tiger
2009-06-08 03:41 pm UTC (link)
Could there be big variations between batches of nominally the same tea?

That's the classic problem with herbal medicine generally.

(Reply to this) (Parent)
(no subject) - [info]papersky, 2009-06-08 03:56 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]torrilin, 2009-06-08 04:13 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]piapiapiano, 2009-06-08 08:16 pm UTC (Expand)
My dratted neurologist makes me watch my tea intake intently - [info]dakiwiboid, 2009-06-08 08:20 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]dd_b, 2009-06-09 02:32 am UTC (Expand)
your intake hasn't changed - [info]pir_anha, 2009-06-09 04:34 am UTC (Expand)
Indeed. - [info]dakiwiboid, 2009-06-08 08:13 pm UTC (Expand)
Re: Indeed. - [info]torrilin, 2009-06-09 12:52 am UTC (Expand)
I was very happy when my doctor finally switched me to something else - [info]dakiwiboid, 2009-06-09 01:05 am UTC (Expand)
Re: I was very happy when my doctor finally switched me to something else - [info]torrilin, 2009-06-09 09:25 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]heleninwales
2009-06-08 03:32 pm UTC (link)
I'm assuming that you haven't had the test results back yet, so to be honest, I would wait for those before making any changes to beverage consumption. I don't honestly think it's a caffeine problem because the feeling ill was a sudden thing and you didn't mention changing your caffeine consumption beforehand.

Your caffeine consumption sounds quite low to me.

(Reply to this)


[info]fidelioscabinet
2009-06-08 03:49 pm UTC (link)
Caffeine issues are all so complicated--in addition to amounts consumed, the ability to different individuals to tolerate it are as variable as with any other drug.

A sudden spike in BP, though, along with such extreme vertigo suggests something else is at work, to my way of thinking.

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[info]tournevis
2009-06-08 03:50 pm UTC (link)
Does not sound like a caffein problem to me.

(Reply to this)


[info]daegaer
2009-06-08 04:03 pm UTC (link)
I slept far better and had fewer headaches when I was drinking 10-12 mugs of coffee a day. Now I drink maybe one cup of coffee and two-three cups of weakish (Indian) tea. I sleep very badly and have terrible migraines. No doubt that could be blamed on a build up of caffeine over the years, but it doesn't take into account the two full years I drank neither tea nor coffee, just herbal teas.

You don't sound like you have a caffeine problem at all!

(Reply to this)

re: Caffeine
[info]betonica
2009-06-08 04:06 pm UTC (link)
I don't think the amount of caffeine you consume is at all high - it sounds quite reasonable, under normal circumstances, and is not remotely a "caffeine problem." It falls low on my scale: I only drink caffeinated tea once a month or so for specific needs, and mostly avoid it - but that's just me, and not something I necessarily recommend to anyone else. One cup of coffee or a few cups of caffeinated tea is low to moderate consumption. Someone drinking 5 to 10 cups of coffee a day, I'd start asking about other stressors in their life, and perhaps be concerned. More than ten cups, and I'd think they have a problem that will almost certainly cause or exacerbate medical issues. But it's not my business unless they ask for my advice, or I have to pick them up off the floor and bundle them into an ambulance for whatever reason.

The reason I recommended that you back off of the caffeine was not because I thought it could be a cause of your current issues, but because it might exacerbate them. Chest pain or tightness and unexplained acute and severe increases in blood pressure with vertigo are nothing to mess around with, and caffeine would probably push both of those further. (Even if you're not having symptoms now, sufficient caffeine could provide just that extra bit to bring them on. For an unknown quantity on "sufficient.")

My suggestion, therefore, would be to cut back on your normal caffeine intake until you get the tests back on Wednesday. If you cut it out entirely, or cut it back to something with a small amount of caffeine just in the morning, that would probably be wise.

This is all to err on the side of caution, of course. I'm an EMT; I'm likely to do that.

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[info]elissaann
2009-06-08 04:20 pm UTC (link)
That would be too much tea for me, but not for most people.

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[info]firecat
2009-06-08 04:59 pm UTC (link)
Not in general, but bodies are variable.

Bodies are so variable that probably the only way to test whether caffeine is contributing is to stop drinking caffeinated tea for a few days and see if the symptoms change.

(Reply to this)


[info]gypsy1969
2009-06-08 05:00 pm UTC (link)
I think caffeine tolerance can be affected by age. My husband used to drink 1-2 pots of coffee a day and now can't drink more than 1 cup of coffee (and only in the am) without it affecting his sleep. I try to drink less than 200 mg of caffeine a day but it varies.

As the article said, each person has a different threshold and that can change over time I think. I think only you can decide if it is a problem.

(Reply to this)


[info]janni
2009-06-08 05:00 pm UTC (link)
It's admittedly been 5 years or more since I did the research and the thinking could easily have changed in that time, but back when I wrote an article on caffeine, my recollection was that 200-300 mg of caffeine a day wasn't a problem--unless one was particularly sensitive or had other health issues it played badly with. That was 1-2 cups of coffee a day (and Starbuck's has like double the caffeine of everyone else), but enough cups of tea that I decided I didn't even need to think about it much.

(The range of what people drank was fascinating--I did a survey in my journal, and I seem to recall that while most people drank like 1-4 cups of their beverage of choice a day, there were a few outliers who drank either more than a dozen cups of tea a day--maybe in order to control migraines?--or a couple 2 liter bottles of caffeinated soda.)

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[info]lenora_rose
2009-06-09 12:00 am UTC (link)
Funny: I heard that Starbucks, due to over-roasting their beans, has less caffeine than most coffees (One of the first things to roast out of a coffee bean *is* the caffeine. So the strongest-flavoured darkest roasts are the weakest caffeine-wise.)

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[info]redbird
2009-06-08 05:05 pm UTC (link)
I was startled by the suggestion, in part because I wouldn't expect sudden, dramatic effects from tea that you'd been drinking in more or less the same amount for years.

(Reply to this)

where contradicted by somebody else's experience or medical reference this is likely enough wrong.
[info]cem
2009-06-08 05:16 pm UTC (link)
Just some experience from the field - where contradicted by somebody else's experience or medical reference this is likely enough wrong.

Caffeine is a common self medication for allergy issues - and cause/cure of headaches - because of the effect on blood vessels - with the possibility of an impact on fluid balance because a diuretic and so a dual but generally opposing hit on blood pressure - up with vaso constriction tracking downward with decreased fluid volume. Combined with e.g. massive doses of Vitamin C as someone might take at cold/allergy symptoms or simply because a case of good oranges was there fluid volume can be impacted even more. Enough to put people off but not usually enough to give real problems - a possible issue for fluid balance in field exercises where natural mechanisms of homeostasis are interfered with. Yeager and Rutan avoided caffeine for more than a year before their round the world flight so the stay awake effect would be maximized when they needed it - accomodation is an issue. Cycling dosage up and down as folks will sometimes do between the work week and the weekend say will give odd results but usually no problem beyond odd sleep patterns. Interactions with belladonna and other plant alkaloids are problematic though - nicotine and alcohol can give similar antagonistic effects. Electrolyte/pH imbalance has of course killed a few people and put many more in the hospital.

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[info]coraa
2009-06-08 05:59 pm UTC (link)
I have had chest constriction/shortness of breath, lightheadedness, and weird visual artifacts including vertigo from too much caffeine -- but 'too much caffeine' in that case was on the order of 6-8 cups of coffee in a relatively short period of time, which is to say many, many times what you are drinking now.

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[info]noveldevice
2009-06-08 06:28 pm UTC (link)
On an average day I drink at least 16 oz of coffee, and often another 16-32 oz of cola and/or 16oz of black tea. If you have a caffeine problem, I'm practically dead of it.

And since I'm actually in really good health, I have a hard time thinking you have a caffeine problem. :P

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[info]gwynnega
2009-06-08 06:47 pm UTC (link)
I've found that when I'm super-stressed out or dealing with certain illnesses, the amount of caffeine I can normally tolerate goes way down. So while it doesn't sound like you have a caffeine problem, cutting back on your tea intake would give your body one less thing to process while you're trying to sort out what's going on.

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[info]commodorified
2009-06-08 07:11 pm UTC (link)
From what you're describing, no. Especially as you mention constricted breathing and caffeine is a bronchiodilator and helps people breathe BETTER.

I had to give the stuff mostly up because it was causing me sleeplessness and aggravating my already tricky bladder, but even with a caffeine *overdose* - which I had once - I didn't have those symptoms; I just felt speedy and strangely detached from the world.

So, I have no clue what might be going on with you, but I doubt you need to cut back on the caffeine. Except... how much WATER do you drink? Is it even possible that you're running underhydrated?





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[info]wikdsushi
2009-06-09 12:15 am UTC (link)
Posts like this make me long for the days when I could have caffeine (or theophylline, or theobromine) in any amount. (No, really. Even small amounts are deadly. No exceptions.) I dearly miss Darjeeling. Oh, well. Guess I'll just have another cup of rooibos.

Actually, that sounds really good. I may have to do that tonight.

(Reply to this)

Sounds like ephedra not caffeine?
[info]cem
2009-06-09 01:24 pm UTC (link)
Sounds like ephedra not caffeine?

(Reply to this)


[info]houseboatonstyx
2009-06-09 03:33 pm UTC (link)
The article sounds rather one-sided, and the author has a financial interest in tea-drinking. I know I've seen mentions of coffee as perhaps protecting against, and certainly negatively-linked with, more common illnesses such as Alzheimers and iirc diabetes.

JP Saleeby, MD is co-director of the Emergency Department at LRMC in Hinesville, GA. He is adjunct professor in health sciences at Georgia Southern University and lectures on the benefits of tea drinking. His book Wonder Herbs: A Guide to Three Adaptogens covers the medical and health benefits of Jiaogulan tea. He is the medical / health writer for the Tea Experience Digest magazine. Dr. Saleeby can be reached at jpsaleeby[at]aol.com
Reference:
Cornelis, M. El-Sohemy, A, et. al., Coffee, CYP1A2 Genotype, and Risk of Myocardial Infarction, JAMA. March 2006;295:10:1135-1141.

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