Jo Walton ([info]papersky) wrote,
@ 2008-06-15 12:02:00
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Why I can't write science fiction. Grump.
I can't write science fiction because I know both too much and not enough science.

I know too much to spout total crap and not care, and I don't know enough to inherently get it right. So I can write it and be sort of right and I need to get it checked.

Getting it checked slows me down, because it's everything. And sometimes slowing me down in itself slows me down to the point of losing momentum and not being able to write it. Other times getting it checked means I can't write the paragraph I want to write that was doing set up and incluing and making the whole thing work. The way I write, I inclue as I go along and plot develops as I go along and background develops out of that, and my understanding of the world develops (even if lots of it doesn't end up on the page) and if half of what I think turns out to be wrong then it just gets to the point where it isn't worth doing in the first place. The people who know science suggest alternatives that totally screw up what I wanted to do and why I wanted to do it, and I lose all confidence in it and decide I should stick to stuff I understand.

So I have this thing about aliens with four genders. It takes place in the universe where the solution to the Fermi Paradox is that FTL drives make your star explode after 20 uses. So these aliens are stuck in their solar system (with a couple of other aliens who showed up and can't go home) and they know about other aliens. (Earth may or may not exist in this universe. It doesn't matter. This is a story about some aliens.) My aliens have a mother planet and a terraformed marslike, and a moon where they live in domes. My character comes from the terraformed planet. He's leaving a spaceship on the mother planet, he smells the mother planet air, and he thinks "Ah, the sweet smell of /INSERT ATMOSPHERE COMPONENT GAS HERE/, which we don't have in the air of my terraformed home, which smells so atavistically good because this is where my ancestors evolved, but which nevertheless reminds me of the three years I spent here in the prison camp." And I stop, and I trot off to ask what atmospheric component gas it could be (and already you notice I have stopped writing and started checking, and also, note how much I had to explain to get to this point, which in the actual story would all not be explained) and after a long discussion I find out that there's nothing, unless I totally change everything I want, or give them noses that can smell argon or something (which is an unnecessary complication when they already have turtle shells and four eyes and the interesting thing is the four genders) and I have to scrap that sentence which was doing set up and incluing and background and was about to set up the next sentence about how he met his best friend in the prison camp and was going to lead on into some actual story.

If I didn't know any science at all, I'd just merrily put traces of chlorine in an oxygen atmosphere and it would all be as dumb as heck but at least it would actually get written and the characters would get out of my head and get to have their adventure.

And this is just one line, and it's all like that.

So anyway, that's why I don't write SF, even though it's what I like to read.


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[info]kalimeg
2008-06-15 04:16 pm UTC (link)
So what's wrong with using sulphur?

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[info]almeda
2008-06-16 10:39 pm UTC (link)
Or a botanical of some kind.

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[info]antonia_tiger
2008-06-15 04:18 pm UTC (link)
But that example, at least, is a particular sort of science fiction.

A story, set in the universe of Farthing, about Alan Turing on the undergrough railroad to Canada, openly sought as a vile homosexual and secretly pursued because he knows too much about cracking Enigma: that's Science Fiction too.

You just need to research different things. And maybe, when he settles down in Canada, you already know the view from his window.

(Reply to this)


[info]stevendj
2008-06-15 04:41 pm UTC (link)
Argon's a noble gas, which means that (for all practical purposes) it doesn't react chemically with anything. So, even aliens shouldn't be able to smell it.

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[info]wcg
2008-06-15 04:48 pm UTC (link)
/INSERT ATMOSPHERE COMPONENT GAS HERE/

Dimethyl telluride.

(Reply to this)

you do not even have to ID it.
[info]wolfdancer
2008-06-15 04:52 pm UTC (link)
It is HOME. the slight elusivne biprodic or some thing that was not could not ever be replace recreatated under a difrent sun, under a difrent sky, by difrent prlants.
It was a subtal blend of of stone and light and air and dome and teck cound not do ever, it was a longing that was unspoken, unknown un wished unkneeded till now.
and now it was here and raw and everthing.
a elusive taint on the air.
it trigereed something.

soemething like that?

(Reply to this) (Thread)(Expand)

Re: you do not even have to ID it.
[info]adrian_turtle
2008-06-16 01:37 am UTC (link)
I was going to say that. I've known the atmospheric composition of my home planet for decades--the science textbooks for children name the major components, and I learned the proportions of trace elements when I was studying engineering. Yet none of that explains the smell of home.

People who miss the seashore say they long for "the smell of salt," but that's a metaphor...the air near the sea smells much more complicated than sodium chloride. There doesn't seem to be any reason not to have the same kind of metaphor for missing the smell of argon, if one goes to a place where the atmosphere has no argon, and is also depleted in a lot of complicated-smelling things with no names. I can see why it would be challenging to write about, for fear of creating the impression one did not know anything about argon.

(Reply to this) (Parent)

Re: you do not even have to ID it. - [info]papersky, 2008-06-16 06:06 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]maviscruet
2008-06-15 04:57 pm UTC (link)
Why ID it? It just smells good. Heck -it if was an obvious thing then teh terraformed planets would have it the same. IT needs to be a subtle blend of something - an entire historys worth of rotting veg for example

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[info]papersky
2008-06-16 06:07 pm UTC (link)
I must have written this post really badly.

I need to ID it, and it needs to be an atmospheric component, to write the story I want to write.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]hilarityallen
2008-06-15 05:06 pm UTC (link)
As someone who is trying to start to write, I have also found this very aggravating, as (even though it's not directly relevant to story I'm failing to write) I have to have convincing physics in the background, because otherwise it's All Wrong.

I love reading sci-fi though, so presumably for some people it's less of a problem.

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[info]antonia_tiger
2008-06-15 05:16 pm UTC (link)
I write odd little bits of stuff for an amateur shared-world story/art site, and there have been times I've been rummaging through Wikipedia for plausible detail.

It's easier to check obscure details of the real world than some of the key details of the fictional setting, like whether you need a boat to get from the Courthouse to the Hospital.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]arielstarshadow
2008-06-15 05:16 pm UTC (link)
What if it isn't one component, but rather the mixture itself?

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[info]thothmeister
2008-06-15 05:28 pm UTC (link)
Like [info]antonia_tiger said, SF about actual scientific things is just one sub-genre. It's often known as hard SF; I'm not really into that; David Brin is sometimes a hard SF writer but his earlier Uplift novels weren't. Likewise Spider Robinson's most popular novels were in his Callahan/Lady Sally series. Both had little in the way of sciences in them. They are more in the domain of science fantasy, the sub-genre I write in with much, much less cache. :)

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[info]tapestry01
2008-06-15 05:45 pm UTC (link)
When I smell the air, I don't think of chemicals or compounds, I think of what's growing there: trees, flowers, the scent of animals, stuff like that. It doesn't have to be a component of the atmosphere-- how they feel when they smell it is more important.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]papersky
2008-06-16 06:09 pm UTC (link)
To your characters in your story.

To my characters in my story, that it's an atmospheric component is significant and triggers how they feel.

I must have written this post really badly since I didn't manage to explain this.

(Reply to this) (Parent)


[info]brownnicky
2008-06-15 05:51 pm UTC (link)
As I write in a broadly similar way, I know exactly where you are coming from.
I can't write SF because I know absolutely nothing so I'm not even tempted.

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[info]muuranker
2008-06-15 05:55 pm UTC (link)
I'm with those who have offered compounds, chemical or biochemical.

I know you were just giving an example of when a Good Story comes adrift on the rock of Physics. But this is not just a Science Fiction problem.

** oh - interrupt to say that on the news just now a CofE cleric has formally blessed a Civil Partnership, does little dance in head, ok, goes back to subject at hand **

Not just a SF problem ... and the good authors know when to say 'ok, so putting insulin into the water supply isn't going to knock everyone out, apart from the Diabetic, and I can't think of anything else which will take out everyone-but-X, so I'm going to shelve this story'.

Speculative fiction has it slightly easier, in that you _can_ design your nasal receptors differently. Most people wouldn't know you can't smell argon, but you could bring it up much, much later, and in passing, to give those who do know resolution. Explaining-at-the-point '... which X could sense due to the fact that ....' is the kiss of death to me.

Soo... keep writing this one! There are LOADS of things that can be smelled, and you can choose between them when you find out what might be significant or elegant. From the turtle shells, I'm going to guess salt. And from the genders, something like Eucalyptus. But it's your story...

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[info]carandol
2008-06-15 07:24 pm UTC (link)
I'd agree with everyone who says it doesn't have to be a gas. It could be a common plant which they decided not to take with them to the new world because it's an agricultural weed. Whatever the smell, unless your character is a scientist too, he/she/it/other is unlikely to know the chemical involved. I've no idea of the chemical composition of the smell of the ground after a rain, but chances are it smells different in Africa than it does in Lancaster.

Ursuala Le Guin writes SF without much science fact checking needed.

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[info]papersky
2008-06-16 01:38 am UTC (link)
It can't be a sodding plant because he was in the other hemisphere before, when he was in the camp. And it needs to be the atmosphere because this is the first indication of them having two planets and him coming from the other one.

Emmet says I was traumatised by the anti-gravity tentacle.

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[info]txanne
2008-06-15 07:39 pm UTC (link)
And meanwhile I'm wondering how the heck one finds out that one's star will explode after 20 FTL trips.

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[info]timill
2008-06-15 08:26 pm UTC (link)
Finding out is easy.

Surviving to know it afterwards is the trick...

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]txanne, 2008-06-15 08:44 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]timprov, 2008-06-15 10:14 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]papersky, 2008-06-16 01:30 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]txanne, 2008-06-16 03:25 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]lizzibabe, 2008-06-16 10:30 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]spacecrab
2008-06-15 07:44 pm UTC (link)
Do you really have to specify what the gas is to write the story? Can't you just say that the protagonist smells the mother planet air and recognizes the smell -- without going into that much detail?

The story is the important thing. I don't really care whether the science is 100% credible by current year standards (or whether the description of how the horse is cinched lacks detail in the fantasy novel). If the author knows how to get this stuff right and describes it in a compelling way, that's gravy. I can be thrown out of a story when I know enough to see that some specific detail is unlikely or improbable. And it's worse when that specific detail is a linchpin for the plot. But I don't object, as a reader, when the author hints at details and let the reader fill them in - in the service of larger narrative goals.

It bothers me (enough to post this) that we may be losing s-f stories that might be written by gifted storytellers (like you) to didactic fact-perfect exercises that are totally non-compelling as stories.

(Reply to this)


[info]thesaucernews
2008-06-15 07:56 pm UTC (link)
Forget about chemistry if what you want to evoke is an emotional response, or a sense of contrast between an artificial environment and nature, anyway.

I offer this as an example, do with it what you will:


It smelled like rain, here. Really like rain, the commingling fragrance of sky and soil and sun, the stink of manure and the sweat from animals, the indescribable greenness in the scent of leaves. Nothing at all similar to what passed for rain under the domes back home. Machines did the raining back home, and the rain smelled like disinfectant.

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[info]khiemtran
2008-06-15 08:04 pm UTC (link)
That's the same reason I can't write the contemporary southeast asian setting stories I'd like to. I know more than the average western reader, but I know enough to know how much I'd also get wrong.

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[info]pompe
2008-06-15 08:21 pm UTC (link)
I will go with many of the other people who have already responded. I really like hard SF but I don't like it when it infodumps unnecessary information ("Glorg looked up at the G3V sun orbiting 1.03 AU away"-like).

Why bother with telling exactly what gas it is? Tell what it feels like instead. A fair deal of SF authors get into trouble because they unnecessarily play with scientific terms which frankly does no good for the literary quality of the product anyway. Any author who writes hardish SF without much clunky science lingo is an author I'd happily check out.

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[info]faithhopetricks
2008-06-15 08:38 pm UTC (link)
Getting it checked slows me down, because it's everything. And sometimes slowing me down in itself slows me down to the point of losing momentum and not being able to write it.

....oh my God, SING it.

I have no advice to offer because I am in precisely the same leaky boat. I really do like sf, but it's a struggle for me to write.

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PLEASE PLEASE ANSWER
[info]isa_velasco
2008-06-15 10:54 pm UTC (link)
HI!
I KNOW THIS IS GOING TO SOUND DESPERATE, BUT I TRULY NEED TO ASK SOME QUESTIONS.
1) WHO'S THE MANAGER OF THIS WEBPAGE? IS IT REALLY JO WALTON?
2) IS THERE GOING TO BE A SECOND PART OF TOOTH AND CLAW?
3) IF THERES A SECOND PART, WHAT NAME WILL IT HAVE? AND WHEN IS IT COMMING OUT?

PLEAAASE ASNWER ME
I LIVE IN CHILE AND IF THERE IS A SECOND PART I WILL DO EVERYTHING FOR GETTING IT!.
THANKTOU THANKYOU THANKYOU!
ISA.
PD: IF NO ONE SEES THIS ILL KEEP PUTTING IT UNTIL SOMEONE ANSWERS.

(Reply to this) (Thread)

Re: PLEASE PLEASE ANSWER
[info]papersky
2008-06-16 01:34 am UTC (link)
Hi.

Yes, this is really Jo Walton.

There probably isn't going to be a second part of TOOTH AND CLAW. I did start writing one, but I stopped. I posted what I had written here and here and here. If you want it in Spanish I'm afraid you're out of luck.

I'm really glad you liked it so much.

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Re: PLEASE PLEASE ANSWER - [info]daystreet, 2008-06-16 03:59 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]caindog
2008-06-15 11:30 pm UTC (link)
Why identify the exact chemical? When I go home to north Alabama I know that the municipal drinking water supply, fed from the Tennessee River, will taste different from the reservoir and well water mix we get here in north Texas. If I stop to think about it, I just know that it tastes like *home*.

If I was writing a story and stopped to tell the readers about the particular mix of filtration methods, chlorine treatment, fluoridation, plus the mountain storage and underground delivery system that keeps the water at a constant 60ish (Fahrenheit) year-round instead of the poorly-buried pipes and exposed water towers of Texas that allows the temp to vary so widely... well, it wouldn't matter what was in the next chapter because nobody I know would be able to stay awake long enough to flip the page. (Maybe Tom Clancy in his prime could make that work but I'm not Tom Clancy and, thank goodness, neither are you.)

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[info]tournevis
2008-06-16 02:08 am UTC (link)
They all said it.

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[info]mindstalk
2008-06-16 02:58 am UTC (link)
new problem: if the something is ubiquitous in the home planet atmosphere then there's probably no need to be able to smell it. Senses evolve to detect presence or absence of something; if it's always there... it's the fish/water thing. Now, there might be some sort of physical reaction to the absence of the thing, and maaaybe going 'home' would be a smell-like experience... but I'd vaguely think that something like the lungs relaxing, or being able to breathe easier, or something, would be more likely than *smelling* something your ancestors have always been able to take for granted.

See, you were offending cognitive science as well as chemistry. This probably isn't helping. :)

I'd also wonder why and how four genders, and what they're doing. Evolutionary biologists find two sexes a challenge to explain, and I think R. A. Fisher had scathing analysis of three-sex ideas, though I never read that far.

(Mind, maybe you really did mean gender and not sex -- eusocial insects could be argued as having three genders, male, reproductive female queen and unreproductive female worker. But there's only two sexes. Slime molds have 18 mating types, but that's slime molds, and I think it still takes just two to mate, but finding a compatible pair is more complicated.)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]txanne
2008-06-16 03:28 am UTC (link)
Three sexes might not work in the real world, but they make for pretty good fiction. I can't be more specific because it's a major plot point for the book I'm thinking of.

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(no subject) - [info]mindstalk, 2008-06-16 04:06 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]zeborahnz, 2008-06-16 08:43 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]mindstalk, 2008-06-16 10:01 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]zeborahnz, 2008-06-16 10:43 am UTC (Expand)

[info]trogon
2008-06-16 06:27 pm UTC (link)
Since you've said your characters need to identify the chemical instead of just saying it "smells like home", how about hydrogen sulfide? If the home planet is tectonically active and the terraformed one isn't, they can have H2S from hot springs and volcanoes at home but not anywhere else.

And it actually has a strong and distinctive odor for humans, so you don't need to mess with their noses.

(Reply to this)


[info]stephdairy
2008-06-16 08:06 pm UTC (link)
What you clearly need is something to suppress your scientific knowledge so you stop caring about the details, but I suspect that's an sf story of its very own.

One published author once recommended to me a cocktail of rum and cough mixture.

(S)

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]stefficus
2008-06-17 12:39 am UTC (link)
ooh, ahh.

*goes to try that*

(Reply to this) (Parent)


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