Jo Walton ([info]papersky) wrote,
@ 2008-01-18 11:01:00
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Muddled thoughts, review links, and a line I couldn't resist.
Feeling a little glum this morning, partly because of being terribly underslept, and partly because of a couple of pieces of bad news. Also I'm worried about some friends-and-relations -- it's an odd thing, when someone posts something worrying, or you get email about it, how the worry about that goes crawling along through the landscape of the day like a little worm of worry, popping up here and there among everything else. I like the way the net connects me to people all over the world. Sometimes I read my flist and X is grieving but Y is having a specially good day, and it's not that it cancels out but looking at the mix of the tapestry is soothing just because it is a mix. Other times, well, I suppose some times just trend darker.

So, trawling for some nice cheering reviews, which may or may not be better for me than chocolate, I found:

Green Man Review reviews Ha'Penny.

I found this before, but don't think I actually linked to this Romantic Times review of Ha'Penny

Douglas Barbour (!) reviews Ha'Penny for the Edmonton Journal, thoughtful review actually of both books, some mild spoilers.

The (!) is because Douglas Barbour wrote the first work of literary criticism I ever bought -- Worlds out of Words, a study of Samuel Delany. I bought it in Forbidden Planet an awfully long time ago. He wrote a book about Samuel Delany! And he likes my books! I'm a real grown up writer, and one of these days I'll get my inner fourteen year old to believe it.

Talking about Samuel Delany, he has a new novel out, it's mainstream (and I found it in the mainstream section in Chapters) it's called Dark Reflections, and it's brilliant. I spent half the night reading it. It's about an aging black poet in New York, and it's about life and writing and identity and peach ice-cream. It's not exactly cheery, but it's amazing. Delany does things with prose I wouldn't dare think of trying. It's amazing to think that he has a characteristic... I suppose I'd call it a hesitation, I mean where the character is trying to work something out and hesitates, trying, ("an x. No, is it a... no... it's...") and then gets it. I first noticed it in Triton and nobody else does anything like it, but it is like thought processes, especially the thought processes of someone who is used to being a little bit behind, and I continue to admire it to bits. (I have met Mr. Delany twice, both times at Worldcons. The first time, I'm not sure I formed any coherent syllables, let alone words. The second time, I did manage some words, and even sentences, but I think it was pure awed babble.)

Dark Reflections. It's a trade paperback. You probably want it. But I wish he'd write more SF.

I also read this week Kathryn Hughes biography of George Eliot. (Thank you [info]oursin.) It anticipated its own plot somewhat, but it wasn't bad, and it gave me what I wanted in terms of context.

In one section, she states that some well-regarded people think Middlemarch the best novel in the world, ever. I stopped and looked suspiciously at this, turned the idea around a few times, and cautiously considered that in fact perhaps Middlemarch did deserve to be considered in the same company as Lord of the Rings, Cyteen, A Fire Upon the Deep, The Disposessed and Stars in My Pocket Like Grains of Sand. (That grinding sound you hear? F.R. Leavis turning in his grave?) But you know, not really. Because it's just an awful lot easier if you get the world ready made for you. That's my main objection to people who say mainstream and fanfic can be as good as original SF. People can juggle two balls awfully well, and Middlemarch and Dark Reflections both do that, in their different ways, about as well as it can be done. But that still can't really compare to people who are juggling four.


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[info]desayunoencama
2008-01-18 04:06 pm UTC (link)
It's perhaps ironic since it happens to the character in DARK REFLECTIONS as well at one point, but unfortunately Carroll & Graf, which published the novel, was cancelled a month or two after the book came out, with all staff (editors, publicists, etc.) let go and no one to support the book and its publication.

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[info]papersky
2008-01-18 04:13 pm UTC (link)
You're kidding!

But that happens in the book... you know, truth really does get away with being stranger than fiction.

There are two typos in the "other books by" list (The Straights of Messina is a book I can sort of imagine Delany writing... but he didn't) and I thought that was odd enough, considering the way he talks about the "dimself" typo. But wow.

Apocalyptic levels of irony.

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Delany
[info]montedavis
2008-01-20 07:40 pm UTC (link)
I've had a far-more-off-than-on acquaintance with Chip since we were NYC neighbors when Triton came out... most recently and sustainedly, when I was teaching at Temple a few years ago. To hear him tell it, half his life is "I'd just used [or was toying with using] X in writing, when X' or X or x happened."

Don't hesitate at the next con. He's scary bright, scary knowledgeable, scary articulate -- and very kind and curious. His conversation is as good as it gets; just lie down in a dim room afterward until the wheels stop spinning so fast, and you'll be fine.

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[info]fledgist
2008-01-19 02:42 am UTC (link)
Why does reality sound so much like fiction?

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[info]silkov
2008-01-19 04:25 pm UTC (link)
yes

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[info]oursin
2008-01-18 04:17 pm UTC (link)
But Eliot does such wonderful world-building - she never takes the lazy path of relying on reader assumptions or stock fill-in. Tailor-made, not ready-made off the peg.

And is there a case for her as sf writer (maybe not even) manquee, given the importance of scientific development (and metaphor) and technological change in the plots of Middlemarch?

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[info]papersky
2008-01-18 04:39 pm UTC (link)
I agree, she'd have been a wonderful SF writer.

Someone mentioned that there was an unauthorised sequel to Daniel Deronda called Gwendolen where Daniel and Gwendolen got together. I immediately thought of a quite different unauthorised sequel where Daniel founds Israel in 1875 and the whole history of the C.20 is different.

(I also want to casually mention one day in a fantasy alternate history someone slipping something inside a copy of Dorothea Brooke's The Golden Bough: A Key to All Mythologies...)

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[info]oursin
2008-01-18 08:34 pm UTC (link)
'Completed from her notes by her sorrowing husband, Will Ladislaw'

I want there to be a sequel in which Dorothea joins Josephine Butler in fighting the Contagious Diseases Acts (Will of course is taking an active part in the Parlimentary debates attacking them), and Rosamund is horrified when her lovely marriageable daughter wants to go and study medicine like that wonderful Elizabeth Garrett.

I also want another sequel in which Rev Farebrother meets a young lady who loves beetles at the British Association for the Advancement of Science, the daughter of a radical Unitarian manufacturer who thinks that members of the Established Church are, well perhaps not the spawn of Satan because Unitarians should be tolerant, but he does not have much time for them, especially as sons-in-law. And I want The Origin of Species to figure in this somewhere.

I'm not sure the dates would work with either of these, so they might have to be AU.

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[info]mamculuna
2008-01-18 04:24 pm UTC (link)
I think every writer makes a world.

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[info]papersky
2008-01-18 04:34 pm UTC (link)
Well there's a sense in which that's true, and then there's the other sense in which writing about this world does just save having to make a lot of things up. If you say "a car" or "a horse" I know what that is... if you say "a Rolls Royce" or "a shetland pony" I know what that is, at all sorts of layers of implication. If you want the level of implication and world depth of the latter two, in an invented world, that's harder.

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[info]mamculuna
2008-01-18 04:46 pm UTC (link)
But I think good writers have to do more than that--you have to create not just a photocopy of the world you see, but the specific world your characters see. And even a slight difference in time or place is huge. Neither Ian McEwan nor I was at Dunkirk, so when he makes that time and place real to me, it's as much a creative act as when George RR Martin makes me see the wall of ice in his fantasy novels. In both cases, I think the writer is using things she or I know to help me see things I don't know, and at the same time in creating them has had to do the same in her own mind. Does that make any sense? I mean, unless I write about an English teacher in late middle age, I'm making a creative leap, inventing stuff I don't really know, and unless a reader is the same, he will also have to make a jump of the imagination.

I love fantasy (the stack of books by my bed is not classics!) but can't say that I feel any more direct knowledge of Eliot's time and place than of Tolkien's.

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[info]livredor
2008-01-18 04:55 pm UTC (link)
Do you read Iris Murdoch at all? I dislike some of her stuff, but when she's on form she makes totally mimetic stuff feel like world-building. I don't know if I can entirely justify that, because it's an emotional sense more than anything else. Maybe something about really seeing our world, not relying on the reader having the appropriate associations ready made, but creating each impression she needs for the story.

Mimetics that I might consider comparing to the best SF: GB Edwards' The book of Ebenezer le Page. Now it maybe that it works because its setting is a society so different from anything that I've experienced that it feels alien, while in fact it's heavily based on Edwards' own background. So you might feel that he did something easy, compared to what Le Guin and Delany achieve (even if the easy thing he did was done incredibly well).

Rushdie and Eco and AS Byatt, though they are at the fringes of what counts as mainstream. Rosemary Sutcliff's kids' stuff, though maybe historicals are closer to the SF camp in the sense of having imaginary settings, than mainstream in ways relevant to the point you're making.

Not that I'm entirely disputing your point, mind you.

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[info]wild_irises
2008-01-18 05:44 pm UTC (link)
Doug Barbour is a good, if long-distance friend. Can I share this with him?

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[info]papersky
2008-01-18 06:02 pm UTC (link)
Sure.

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[info]agrumer
2008-01-18 07:04 pm UTC (link)
I think we've talked about this before, but in one sense, writing about the real world is harder, because there are all sorts of weird details to get wrong.

Remember how, on Star Trek, they'd always give their historical examples in threes? One from antiquity, one from modernity, and one from the future? "Captain, this could represent a tremendous advance in weapons technology, like the English longbow, the atomic bomb, or the zeta cannon." Someone might quibble with me over whether the longbow is really a tremendous advance on the same level as the A-bomb (or even vice-versa), but they can't quibble over the zeta cannon.

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[info]martin_wisse
2008-01-18 08:37 pm UTC (link)
I had to disagree with your last paragraph so much I needed to blog about it.

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[info]darius
2008-01-19 08:08 am UTC (link)
I've posted an unrelated reaction to that paragraph, too.

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[info]fledgist
2008-01-19 02:46 am UTC (link)
I don't think that the sound of Leavis turning in his grave would be particularly metallic (or grindy). I think of it more as tiny quiverings in the Cantabrigian earth.

Now, Q turning in his grave, would be another matter.

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[info]desperance
2008-01-19 06:18 pm UTC (link)
(I have met Mr. Delany twice, both times at Worldcons. The first time, I'm not sure I formed any coherent syllables, let alone words. The second time, I did manage some words, and even sentences, but I think it was pure awed babble.)

I was once in the same space as Mr D. He was sitting alone at one end of a sofa. I thought "That's Samuel Delany! Chip! Eek! And he's alone! That's ... not right!"

And sat at the other end of the sofa. For, um, ten minutes. Couldn't do the talking thing, not at all. Just couldn't.

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On the connotations of "ready made"
[info]montedavis
2008-01-20 07:08 pm UTC (link)
The very good books of any genre (or none, aka mainstream) take less for granted across the board. They create expectations you didn't have, or didn't know you had, on the wing, and then fulfill them.

Lesser books, genre or mainstream, take too much for granted across the board. They use stock materials, fulfill stock expectations, and get I. A. Richards' stock reponses.

An exchange on rasfw last week introduced me to your "incluing." (Thank you for that: I've been reading SF&F for 50 years, thinking about expository technique as a career non-fiction writer for 35, and at last I have a convenient antonym for infodump.) I wrote there that skillful incluing is "by no means all that I like about good SF, but it's near the heart of it."

Yes, but... my favorite mainstream writing also comes up with new expository tools. In Pynchon's Against the Day, there's a stunning lyrical passage (pp. 69-72) about several years in the childhood of Dahlia Rideout, who will be a major character later. She and her father, an itinerant handyman, travel through the Midwest c. 1900. The passage is 95% "exterior" description -- literally exterior, rural landscape and small towns -- with very little explicitly about what kind of child Dahlia is, or how what she sees is changing her. On first reading you could mistake it for something like the "fine writing" starred for our convenience in Cold Comfort Farm.

Yet almost every word of that description has rich multiple echoes, "payoffs," later on in the kind of woman she becomes and the choices she makes. Somehow Pynchon was telling me a great deal about nascent character -- that same old same old bildungsroman thang -- without any of the usual tools. I went back to it after finishing the novel, have been back to it many times since. I live by words, and I'm still shaking my head: how does he do that?!? It's astonishing: a new incluing tactic being born.

So... I guess I'm saying that our experienced world(s) is (are) big and various enough that there's really no end to the world-building to be done. Good SF, like good historical fiction, has an admirable specialty line in world-building under the aspect of change over time (change in technologies, societies, environments, mores, biology & all that). But there's no reason to denigrate the work done under other aspects. Honestly, I don't know how to compare quantitatively (your "juggling two vs four"): any very good fiction's world is never ready made, always "custom" to the task, and makes me ask how does she do that?!?

Which is more than enough.

Edited at 2008-01-20 07:12 pm UTC

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[info]brithistorian
2008-02-03 01:08 am UTC (link)
After reading your review of Dark Reflections, I decided to give it a shot and see what I thought of it. I just finished it today, and here's what I wrote about it in my LJ: Someone on my FL (I wish I could remember who) wrote a review of this book a couple of weeks ago. Since I've been meaning to read one of Delaney's books for years, and since my local library had a copy of this, I decided to give it a shot. After finishing it, I'm now even more curious to read one of Delaney's SF books - he truly is a great author. He manages to pull off what I think is one of the most difficult feats an author can attempt - to write a story which manages to be sad without being depressing. In the character of gay black poet Arnold Hawley, Delaney has created a wonderful vehicle for exploring the themes of loneliness, repressed sexuality, and generally being out of step with the spirit of one's times. Dark Reflections isn't always a pleasant book to read, but it's certainly a thought-provoking and, I think, worthwhile one.

Thanks for the recommendation - this isn't a book I would likely have known about otherwise, and I feel better off for having read it.

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