Jo Walton ([info]papersky) wrote,
@ 2007-07-23 11:47:00
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Rome
So, you want to visit Ancient Rome?

You'll find it's been invaded by Vandals and Visigoths and Ostrogoths and Renaissances and Baroques and Italians driving vespas, and most recently of all by the tourist hordes.

"If you come to the city that all roads lead to, it's not surprising that the traffic is terrible," [info]zorinth said as we walked to the hotel on the first evening. "I've counted sixty vespas on this block alone. And imagine the first day in this heat when they stopped wearing togas and started to wear trousers!"

Rome is a city that has been endlessly reimagining its own past from practically the moment that Romulus and Remus said goodbye to the wolf. Republican Rome reimagined Early Rome, Imperial Rome successively reimagined Republican Rome and itself, the Renaissance and every period since has reimagined and reclaimed Imperial Rome in its own image. It's worth claiming and reclaiming, inventing and reinventing. What's here is more than the shadow of a broken column in the sunshine -- but the broken column stands for the whole. It wasn't a perfect civilization, but it was an interesting and appealing one, especially at a distance that lets you have perspective about the slaves and the women and the vicious nexus.

When you're looking at a second century Roman statue that's a copy of a fifth century BC Greek statue and which was patched up in the Renaissance, there isn't a question of authenticity, there's a questioning of the whole concept. When there's a pizzeria with one wall that used to be part of a Roman palace and another where chunks of marble from columns and anything lying around have been hastily cobbled together in mortar, and this isn't anything at all out of the ordinary, you realize how oversimplified your, well, Zorinth's, idea of knocking down the whole modern city and excavating is.

It's the most layered place I have ever been.

[info]zorinth will be posting pictures later or tomorrow.

It must be strange to inhabit, to live with the layering. It's strange just to walk around, looking for Ancient Rome and tripping over a Baroque church, or a Renaissance fountain, that you'd travel to see in any other context. You curse Victor Emannuel, the nineteenth century king who united Italy as a country, for building his monument on the Forum, and yet you understand why he did it. You hatch plans to ask for the Pantheon back -- after all, the world is full of churches, and how many complete pagan temples are there, perfect ones with a space at the centre that leads your eye up and out to the sky and the gods of the sky? Ones that were founded by M. Agrippa, consul for the third time? It's enough to bring tears to your eyes. And you realise that even as you resent the modern buildings and the vespas and want your temple back, you are making your own claim -- after all, don't you sometimes speak of the Romans as "we"? Didn't you come to modern Italy to visit Ancient Rome?

Well, reclaiming and reinventing Rome is what the Romans do.


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[info]martin_wisse
2007-07-23 04:19 pm UTC (link)
Rome?

Rome is only a village.

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[info]redbird
2007-07-23 05:54 pm UTC (link)
No, it's a πολις, and long has been.

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[info]veejane
2007-07-23 04:45 pm UTC (link)
The thing I found freakiest about both Greek and Roman art was the idea that all the austere white statues used to be painted bright colors, including their eyeballs. When Athena is blue and green and red, and staring at you, I'm not sure austerity and distant dignity are the right words for the situation any longer.

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[info]akicif
2007-07-23 05:17 pm UTC (link)
And not just as long ago as that.... There's a Son et Lumiere performance at Amiens Cathedral, where they use a battery on incredibly fast-moving tunable dye lasers to repaint the statuary on the Cathedral walls in their mediaeval colours (they warn people that pictures won't come out, because it depends on persistence of vision, but a long enough exposure sort of works).

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[info]houseboatonstyx
2007-07-23 07:34 pm UTC (link)
What a wonderful use of high-tech! To respectfully and non-invasively give us both views, in context.

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[info]akicif
2007-07-24 07:19 am UTC (link)
Oh, it was beautiful....

I really must get round to uploading some of the pictures (taken with a pretty cruddy digital camera, though)

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[info]selkie_b
2007-07-23 05:05 pm UTC (link)
There are parts of France like that... Melle for one, where Charlemagne had his silver mines. Even in my parents back yard in Fontenille (near Chef Boutonne) there is an ANCIENT bread oven (used for the whole village at one point) and inset in one wall is a piece of Celtic knotwork from about 150 or 200 AD. Our guess? Could have been a shrine there - there is a natural spring called "Le Source" that appears every late Autumn when the rains come and lasts into early summer with baby trout and eels in it :) like magic...

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layered France, too. and O Yeah: wow.
[info]rutemple
2007-07-25 06:25 am UTC (link)
...the grotte at Pech-Merle for another, near the Lot River valley where I got to spend a week at a medieval singing workshop in the middle of the three weeks we just spent in France. On beyond the 25000 year old cave paintings (unlike Lascaux, they still let 700 people a day, so many days of the year, in to see the Real Thing at Pech-Merle), there in the cave is also a place where someone left footprints in the mud - mud that's been calcite for well over 12000 years now. Five minutes back down the road to our week's home, am ancient stone shed that someone has changed the pitch of the roof, with bricks, somewhere in the centuries between its first being built and now - and it's in use as a barn.
It's really amazing to visit places - cities like Rome, and the rural French countryside - where folks have been living for a very long time.

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[info]lethargic_man
2007-07-23 05:59 pm UTC (link)
I've just come back from three and a half weeks in Jerusalem, which is very much similar (only without the pagan temples, leastaways not in the last three thousand years; one little Astarte was all I saw of those...).

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[info]madwriter
2007-07-23 06:37 pm UTC (link)
Meanwhile, I'm still wishing the Athenians would rebuild the Akropolis. After all, it was relatively intact until getting blown up in the late 17th century.

I would like to visit Rome, but short of selling a whole lot of books in the future I don't think it will happen. In the meantime I just have a whole lot of ancient Roman literature in English translation that I read voraciously.

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[info]zeborahnz
2007-07-23 07:12 pm UTC (link)
The traffic in Rome has been terrible for millenia. From my reading, the Roman Empire had curfews and one-way streets and road widening projects and all, trying to manage it. --Okay, the road widening project was Nero's fire, but you know. People complained because with wider streets the buildings no longer blocked the heat of the sun.

Enjoy!

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[info]papersky
2007-07-23 07:40 pm UTC (link)
Ancient Rome banned wheeled vehicles except after dark.

We felt that this law should be revived.

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[info]sylvia_rachel
2007-07-23 07:48 pm UTC (link)
Yes, my mother has always said that about Rome, too. She once told me that Roman drivers lack respect not only for traffic signals but also for pedestrians, sidewalks, fountains, and public statuary.

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[info]zingerella
2007-07-23 08:07 pm UTC (link)
I remember thinking that when I was there.

The first thing the Responsible Adults did when we got to Rome was give us a lesson in street-crossing.

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[info]sienamystic
2007-07-24 12:36 am UTC (link)
Yes, but once you get back to Rome after Naples, Roman traffic seems terribly tame.

I never have been so close to death as I was touristing in Naples.

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[info]zeborahnz
2007-07-24 05:51 am UTC (link)
There were exceptions to that law, IIRC: I can't remember for certain what they were, but have the impression that they included garbage disposal, religious vehicles, and anything carrying a politician.

There's a recent (and excellent) book on the subject, "Traffic Congestion in the Roman Empire" by Cornelis van Tilburg.

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[info]brashley46
2007-07-23 07:12 pm UTC (link)
Added [info]zorinth so's I can see the pictures, thanks.

Count on you to see the layers. I had enough fun in Paris, 30-something years ago, walkin past Notre-Dame at midnight and past the Louvre at noon ... and Rome has a thousand years more immediately apparent. The French have been too neat with their rubbish.

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[info]houseboatonstyx
2007-07-23 07:38 pm UTC (link)
At least it was a pizza stand rather than Mongolian Wok Barbecue.

*** spoiler for Virgil's Aeneid ***



Has anyone else noticed that when they fulfill the prophecy of 'eating their tables' it constitutes pizza?

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[info]pnh
2007-07-24 02:12 am UTC (link)
For Roman layering, Teresa says you should visit Santa Maria Sopra Minerva--the church of St. Mary built over the temple of Minerva. Its attractions include the incorrupt body of St. Catherine of Sienna.

Teresa's been to Rome; I haven't. She found it the most amazing city she'd ever visited--ancient, corrupt, brilliant and, spookily, a place she'd been to all her life in dreams.

In late 2008 and early 2009, we hit a bunch of anniversaries. In December 2008, I'll have worked at Tor for 20 years. In January 2009, I turn 50. In March 2009, we'll celebrate our 30th anniversary. Our plan is: we're going to Rome.

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[info]tekalynn
2007-07-24 04:20 pm UTC (link)
Seconded. That was our favorite place in all Rome. We went there every day to sit quietly and recharge our batteries. It also set the theme of our Italian trip, which turned into a "Let's spot Catherine's next relic!" tour.

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[info]fledgist
2007-07-24 02:35 am UTC (link)
Cities are places people live in, and really interesting cities are layered. My favourite place in Europe is the city of Betanzos in Galicia. On the plain is a mostly nineteenth-century town, when you go up the hill you find yourself in the middle ages until you reach what, I suppose, would be the acropolis which was originally a hill-fort, or castro in pre-Roman times. The fourteenth and fifteenth century churches in the old town, and the town-houses that are about as old contrast with the cars that putter up the steep mediaeval streets.

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the most layered place I have ever been. . . .
[info]apostle_of_eris
2007-07-24 08:45 am UTC (link)
Then you haven't yet been to Jerusalem.
I od'ed at an excavation at the western edge of Jerusalem where the guide pointed out which of the layered sets of foundations of walls pre-dated King David.
OTOH, I've only seen a few minutes of Rome, though that was sufficiently Fellini-esque.

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Re: the most layered place I have ever been. . . .
[info]papersky
2007-07-24 03:01 pm UTC (link)
I haven't.

I'd really like to.

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[info]davidfrazer
2007-07-24 11:07 am UTC (link)
There's really too much art and architecture in Rome to take in at once. You end up ignoring all the Baroque churches on the way to the Baroque church with the Caravaggio you want to see, and when you get there you've only got time to see the Caravaggio.

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[info]kip_w
2007-07-24 12:45 pm UTC (link)
We went to Rome after seeing Florence, and I really appreciated the fact that Romans seem to police their dogs. Our guide talked so much about thieves that I was paranoid at first. Our second morning, we woke around 7 to the sounds of people in the street. Went back to sleep, and awoke about an hour later to the sounds of people still in the street. We looked out a window on the Santa Maria Maggiore side, and saw that it was a demonstration that just kept going by. They said a million people ended up in the Forum. Exaggeration? Hard to say. We got up and went out and walked along. When we started seeing baby-blue riot helmets, we decided we'd peel off and go have paninis.

We were delighted to have a bathroom with a shower that wasn't just a designated area of the floor (another mark against Florence), and after one day, the hot water went out and didn't come back for half a week.

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