Jo Walton ([info]papersky) wrote,
@ 2004-09-16 16:06:00
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Fantasy, again
[info]misia was saying she didn't like fantasy and why do people like it, and I'm posting over here rather than replying.

There's a lot of extruded fantasy product I don't like, and don't pick up because it repels me.

There's a lot that I could say about good fantasy and what it can do.

There's a vast range of things called fantasy, some of them very different from each other, and what I'm talking about here is the kind of fantasy Misia says she doesn't like, the straight medievaloid high fantasy.


Why I read it is really very simple, and I only recently figured it out explicitly. I'd been reading lots of W.E.B. Griffin, and then Trollope and then the three David Lodge books, and I was wondering what to read next. I thought I want something... something... something full of passionate declarations.

I want Frodo saying he will take it though he does not know the way, and Eowyn saying she has leave to be burned in the house when the men won't want it any more. I want Laura talking to the unicorn and Patrick saying the second law of thermodynamics doesn't answer back. I want Paul on the Summer Tree. I want Harimad-sol riding across the desert.

I want that range, that possibility of things absolutely mattering, of the whole world in the balance, and the declaration -- at the beginning of Kay's The Wandering Fire, Kevin Laine says "To this I will make reply, though he be a god and this mean my death!" When I want fantasy, I want situations where people can say that, and mean it, and where it can feel real and supported. There's a bit of my soul that thrills to it.

There's an ancient computer game called "Lords of Midnight". I have a Spectrum emulator for DOS so I can play it. It has four colours, and it uses a whole 64k of memory, and you go around collecting people and armies and attacking the bad guy in his fortress of Ushgarak. The names are wonderful, in a certain way, and really, the names are all there is to create the atmosphere. Luxor the Moonprince. Farflame the Dragonlord. It's a strategy game. It's also like concentrated essence of high fantasy.

One day, years ago, I was playing it, and losing, and fighting out the long defeat. My remaining characters were gathered in the castle of Thimrath, vastly outnumbered. When Thimrath fell, there would be only scattered keeps between the enemy and my capital of Xajorkith and ultimate victory of Doomdark. The Utarg of Utarg began to address the other characters thus: "It is true we will die. But we shall not wholly die, though the world go down to darkness and even our names be forgotten. There are other worlds than this, and in those worlds we live again, and strive again, and perhaps one day we will yet strike victory from the jaws of defeat. But we who stand here, we will at nightfall fight, and die, my companions down this long road. The stakes are high. All our world rests on our defence. And if we die, we died doing what we knew best, and for the best reason there is. So I do not say we die for nothing or that our defeat is to no purpose..." Understand -- I was making this up, it wasn't on the screen, he was saying it in my head. And I realized I was crying, that there were tears on my cheeks, that I was crying over the doomed gallantry of this little band of heroes.

So, anyway, that's the essential nutrient I get from high fantasy that nothing else gives me.


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[info]wolfshaman
2004-09-16 01:09 pm UTC (link)
Well said! :)

It simplifies the world in many ways and satisfies a human need for simplicity and definition. It shows someone affecting the world in a major way and shows that a single person can affect things.

Good for the sake of good is its own reward.

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[info]i_ate_my_crusts
2004-09-16 01:12 pm UTC (link)
*applause*

I also want to live part of my life in a world where people *care* for something that *really matters* and where their contribution counts. It's so hard to feel that when mass media makes it clear that no-one really seems to believe even democracy really matters, and that our elected leaders don't seem to really care about us.

You really need a name for that nutrient.

(Reply to this) (Thread)


[info]carandol
2004-09-16 03:56 pm UTC (link)
I must say I too shed a tear on hearing the Utarg of Utarg's speech again. That's exactly what epic fantasy does for me too. Though finding the *real* epic fantasy is difficult, there's so much rubbish you can plough through, waiting for that moment that never comes.

I'm trying to think of real life situations of people who really *care* for something that *really matters*. There's a British band called "Seize the Day" who write protest songs, beautiful protest songs, and also live the life they sing about. One that springs to mind because it tugs the same heartstrings (for me at least) is a song called "With my hammer", about some protesters smashing up a warplane to stop it being sold to Indonesia for bombing East Timor. You can listen to it at http://www.seizetheday.org/hammer.htm and see if it has the same effect on you.

The only other person I've ever met who spoke in the absolutist terms of right and wrong seen in high fantasy, was a Kosovan Alabanian who came to stay with us for a few days when I was living in Germany. He spoke of the great heroism of his people -- but he also spoke of the Serbs in the same tone that Tolkein reserves for his orcs, which made it a difficult one.

It's not often the real world is as black and white as high fantasy, sad to say.

(Reply to this) (Parent)(Thread)(Expand)

(no subject) - [info]papersky, 2004-09-17 04:24 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]carandol, 2004-09-17 05:29 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]papersky, 2004-09-17 05:47 am UTC (Expand)
Patriotic tangent - [info]carandol, 2004-09-18 03:52 am UTC (Expand)
Re: Patriotic tangent - [info]papersky, 2004-09-18 05:17 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nancylebov, 2004-09-18 04:19 am UTC (Expand)

[info]rushthatspeaks
2004-09-16 01:16 pm UTC (link)
Yes. Absolutely.

And that's actually how I became a prose addict, how I learned to love prose for its own sake and for what could be done with words in it-- because there are some kinds of prose in which high fantasy works, and some in which it doesn't, even if it seems like it should. And as a kid I ran across things that worked and things that didn't and started wondering what the difference was, and then I fell in love with E.R. Eddison and there has been no turning back. So it's high fantasy that taught me most of what I know about style and what I can get away with and what I can't, because it's such a delicate mode and it dies so easily. And it's been invaluable.

Mind, I haven't dared write any yet, although I have an inevitable Arthurian novel in the works. But it's been one of the best parts of my reading life to date.

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[info]roane
2004-09-16 01:25 pm UTC (link)
Yes yes yes yes. All of the above. Hell, I got choked up (at work, yet) when I read your speech above. In epic fantasy, when it's well done, people are larger than life, so they do and say things that are larger than life, and I love them for it. The next time someone asks me why I read fantasy, I'm sending them here.

And then I'll hand them my copies of the Fionavar Tapestry (but not right now, cause I'm suddenly struck with an urge to reread them).

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[info]nancylebov
2004-09-16 02:26 pm UTC (link)
Me, too, on the getting choked up. In particular, the "other worlds than this" bit--it's high fantasy, and something I'd like to believe is true, *and* literally true for game characters.

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(no subject) - [info]papersky, 2004-09-16 03:22 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]marykaykare
2004-09-16 01:48 pm UTC (link)
I think so, yes. Also because I fell in love with King Arthur in grade school and never got over it.

MKK

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[info]misia
2004-09-16 01:57 pm UTC (link)
Thank you, that gives me a huge foothold. I really appreciate your take on this and was very much hoping you would weigh in. This gives me quite a bit to think about.

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[info]papersky
2004-09-16 03:19 pm UTC (link)
It's perfectly OK not to like it. I can entirely understand how somebody might not.

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[info]firecat
2004-09-16 03:39 pm UTC (link)
That's a fascinating definition of high fantasy. It explains a lot about why I am so ambivalent about high fantasy. (Snipping long boring analysis of firecat's psychological landscape.)

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[info]sartorias
2004-09-16 03:45 pm UTC (link)
Yupyupyupyupyup
*thok thok thok" (sound of chin hitting collar bones repeatedly)

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[info]msagara
2004-09-16 04:28 pm UTC (link)
What a fabulous post!

Thank you! I may borrow it sometime (or more likely mangle it, but if I do, I'll make sure the good parts are attributed to you and the mangling, to me <wry g>)

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[info]msagara
2004-09-16 04:36 pm UTC (link)
I just wanted to add that I read this aloud to the spouse, and his repsonse was:

"I've never heard so elegant a justification or defense put forth before."

It made me cry (yes, you can all laugh now <wry g>).

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[info]msagara
2004-09-16 04:37 pm UTC (link)
Ummm, that would be eloquent instead of elegant, although I think we could use both...

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[info]brashley46
2004-09-16 06:02 pm UTC (link)
Space opera SF can work the same way for me; I fly and fight with Honor Harrington and the world is a cleaner place, even if the Honorverse is as full of seriously conflicted people as Elizabeth Moon's Girdiverse. Some few writers - you, Moon, Tolkien, Flint, Drake, for a representative sample - just have the ability to show us a hero finding her way through to the good in a perilously ambiguous world. The genre doesn't matter that much. (Heck, I can get the same uplift reading Cecelia Holland or even somebody stop me Mikhail Sholokov.)

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[info]calanthe_b
2004-09-16 06:47 pm UTC (link)

I want that range, that possibility of things absolutely mattering, of the whole world in the balance

Yes, and oh my goodness but you said that beautifully. That's exactly it. I want eucatastrophe--the saving world-change. I want action that's significant; I want characters who can make a choice that will matter, as you say, absolutely...

I want characters who are involved in their world and a world that's involved in the story, and you don't get that anywhere outside high fantasy.

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[info]pegkerr
2004-09-16 07:37 pm UTC (link)
Forth now, and fear no darkness!

Arise, arise, Riders of Theoden!
Fell deeds awake: fire and slaughter!
spear shall be shaken, shield be splintered,
A sword-day, a red day, ere the sun rises!
Ride now, ride now! Ride to Gondor!

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[info]kchew
2004-09-16 10:22 pm UTC (link)
Ah...the feeling of your heart in your throat, your skin on fire, and the fierce, fierce joy of it.

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(no subject) - [info]papersky, 2004-09-17 04:27 am UTC (Expand)
Wow.
[info]baka_kit
2004-09-16 10:09 pm UTC (link)
That's exactly, EXACTLY, what I love. Thank you!

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[info]dendrophilous
2004-09-16 11:36 pm UTC (link)
Yes, absolutely. A world where what people, even the unimportant unnoticed ones, do matters and where there are people who do those things for the right reasons. I am far too cynical to find that here.

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[info]randwolf
2004-09-17 12:27 am UTC (link)
I remember commenting--this was in rasff--that Tolkien's leaders were wiser than ours. To which I think I'd now add that evil in those stories was easily distinguished; while there were figures like Saruman, who concealed their perfidy for many years, for the most part it was plain that Sauron's followers meant Middle Earth no good. I don't know if it's a different moral order than ours, but it is at least a more visible moral order.

I would say you are looking for a universe with a clear moral order, and moral people who one could follow without reservation. Would you agree?

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[info]papersky
2004-09-17 04:31 am UTC (link)
It's a combination of that and the prose.

Because I can get a clear moral order and moral people whom one could follow without reservation from Jerry Pournelle -- or for that matter Heinlein's juveniles, and bear in mind I like those things a lot -- but without the ringing declarations.

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(no subject) - [info]randwolf, 2004-09-17 09:01 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]papersky, 2004-09-17 03:58 pm UTC (Expand)

[info]syntaxhorror
2004-09-17 03:37 am UTC (link)
Beautifully written! I can only agree.

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[info]maviscruet
2004-09-17 06:40 am UTC (link)
I think I agree with you, and I think that GGK does that proberbly better then anybody. Which is why he's one of my favourite authors and why the tapestry is one of my favourite books.

I also think, in part, that this is what I'm after in roleplaying games. And I was going to get into quite a long ramble about one of my Pendragon games that still invokes strong passion in both me and my players (one of my finer momments) when I realised it was really long. So I'll see if I can write it out properly and bung it in my journel if I can.

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[info]braider
2004-09-17 08:06 am UTC (link)
Well said!

You touched on this, but I think other points to state outright: in fantasy, you *know* who is on the side of good and who is on the side of evil, and - here's the important part - one single person can make a difference. People in our day and age feel helpless and unable to positively impact the world as a whole - sometimes even just their community. Fantasy allows them the glow of *helping*, of doing something for the betterment of the world, when they feel powerless to effect change in the real world.

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[info]papersky
2004-09-17 09:58 am UTC (link)
Everyone saying this is making me feel more ambivalent about how acceptable this is, because people can change this world. It's much more uphill work, though.

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(no subject) - [info]msagara, 2004-09-17 05:18 pm UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]carandol, 2004-09-18 03:45 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]nancylebov, 2004-09-18 04:24 am UTC (Expand)
(no subject) - [info]papersky, 2004-09-18 05:03 am UTC (Expand)

[info]klostes
2004-09-17 10:49 am UTC (link)
I think I got here via [info]msagara, but as someone who has recently begun to admit very quietly to herself that she's really not a fan of high fantasy, I found your post very enlightening. My friends who love this genre see things much as you do, though I don't think I've ever asked the right questions to get such a clear answer from them. But you've also helped me put my finger on what I find missing in high fantasy, and why, no matter how I push myself to read more of it, I usually skip on to something else. Thank you for sharing your thoughts on the subject!

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[info]papersky
2004-09-17 11:34 am UTC (link)
You don't want passionate declarations?

Or what is it you're missing.

I'm finding the responses on this one really interesting in an unexpected way.

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(no subject) - [info]klostes, 2004-09-17 11:46 am UTC (Expand)

[info]resqdog51
2004-09-17 11:17 am UTC (link)
Oomph.

Ok, is it WRONG of me that my very first reaction was -- "OMG! She mentioned HARIMAD-SOL! I'm not alone!" ?

Err. yeah. Anyway.

Very well put... I've memoried it.

my own love of fantasy comes, as much from, as you put it above, the 'passion' of it, as it comes from the sheer black-and-whiteness of it. The bad guys are ugly, the good guys are beautiful. You know what is wrong and you know what is right and the good guys always stand up for the right side, even if they die for it -- and if they die, they die valiantly and without wavering from their truths. I can, and will, and have read almost every kind of fiction there is. I've read Griffin and Deitz and Cornwell and Robb and Lowell and... hell, I've even read Finnigan's Wake, gods save me. (The really scary part was I think I actually understood most of it, too... *shudder*) And, really... storys about 'today' reflect, well... today. And I don't like today so much. There are too many wires that can get crossed and too many pitfalls and too many grey areas. If I wanted to burn out my brain on what's right and what's wrong and what's worth standing up for and what's worth dropping... I'd go and try to keep up with politics. Same shit, different day, different name, most of the time over there.

I don't WANT that kind of entertainment. I want something I can believe in, if only for a few hours, and know its RIGHT. I want to know that what I am opposed against is WRONG. Elementally, inescapably WRONG, and that I'm doing the right thing by standing up to it (in my reader's sympathy for the characters.)

Its nice to feel passionate about something and not feel guilty at the same time.

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First thought!
[info]alfreda89
2004-09-17 03:43 pm UTC (link)
Ok, is it WRONG of me that my very first reaction was -- "OMG! She mentioned HARIMAD-SOL! I'm not alone!" ?

Well, maybe not my first thought--I was too busy tearing up myself. I've been working on a high fantasy hole-in-the-wall story for a very, very long time. I couldn't sell it first time I tried--editors found it too grim. (Don't get me started.) Obviously, got to try a new synopsis, so they can see all the light...

I have a very high standard for the ones I keep returning to. Whether it's the horns of Rohan at cockcrow, which still gives me a thrill when I get to it in sequence, or Kay's most beautiful proposal in the world in Tapestry, or Ged using the dragon's name for the only thing he could use it for, refusing to barter his own safety, or Morgon asking one question too many...

Someday I hope to write something in that company. Everyone needs a great dream. Well said, [info]papersky. I'm going to echo your link--I hope you don't mind.

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Re: First thought!
[info]papersky
2004-09-17 03:55 pm UTC (link)
I don't mind at all.

Though I didn't mean it as a high fantasy manifesto -- that isn't what I mostly write, or mostly read at all. There are a lot of things I prefer. It's just that sometimes it's all that will do.

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Re: First thought! - [info]alfreda89, 2004-09-18 07:05 am UTC (Expand)

[info]lostsilmaril
2004-09-18 11:08 am UTC (link)
Very nicely put.

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all our world rests on our defence...
[info]diony
2004-09-18 02:58 pm UTC (link)
That is one of the things I get from teaching self-defense in the way that I do -- not the teaching, actually, because that's what teaching always is, technique and focus and showing people how to do something. But the moment in which the woman is out there on the mat and the guy in the padded suit is trying to pin her down and threatening her and I'm a disembodied voice in her ear coaching her to fight, to remember that she's going to get through it, to remember that she has the power to keep herself safe -- it's not beautiful prose, but it's the Utarg of Utarg's speech, it really is.

We encourage them to yell while they fight, and sometimes they don't just yell, they talk, they say things that utterly true about what they are doing in protecting themselves.

It's one of the few places in reality I can imagine to do it; safe because it's not quite real, and yet preparation for something real, a situation in which that pure black & white passionate dedication is completely appropriate.

Maybe that's why I've been reading less & less fantasy in the last few years.

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[info]green_knight
2004-09-19 03:26 pm UTC (link)
I think one of the most attractive things about high Fantasy and related books is that There Are Consequences. If you insult your best friend in a chicklit romance, she might run away, but will return to her job and boyfriend after the weekend. In high Fantasy, she might run away and get killed by orcs. There is scope in good stories for awful things to happen as well as wonderful ones; no soft, plushy cocoon for the characters, whole cities can be flattened and dynasties destroyed if you get it wrong.

(livejournal is hiccuping, I hope this gets posted once only)

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