Jo Walton ([info]papersky) wrote,
@ 2004-09-09 13:02:00
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Worldcon: Panels
I was on thirteen program items, which is a lot.

Some people said that some people were over-programmed, and others under-used, but I thought the program was terrific. I didn't manage to get to any of it except what I was on -- I tried, but the one time I tried, Greer Gilman and I tried to go to [info]malkingrey's Anglo-Saxon item only to find that Debra had thought it was a panel, not a talk, and drafted us to be panel. I managed to talk about the Saxon elegaic fairly coherently, but I didn't dare risk any more after that.

I didn't take any notes and I'm not going to attempt to write proper reports, these are just some things I want to remember.


There were three things which I thought and said on panels which I want to maybe write about more coherently. The first was on the Princess panel where I talked about the weight and momentum story has. [info]fairmer has a really good report on this panel here.

Story is a force of nature and when you try to take it somewhere it doesn't naturally want to go, momentum is against you. I know this and I need to remember it, this is what caused my main-plot balance problem in T&C. (Writing about Sher and Selendra was much easier because that's the channel the story expected to take.)

On the Fantasy of Manners panel, of which lots of people have good detailed reports, I talked about the way story is often in the cracks -- I meant between social expectations or one code and another coming into conflict. The more I think about this, the more I think this is part of how I "plot", I find the cracks in the social structures (or the physical constraints for that matter) and story just emerges from the fact they're there. If you tell me about a world where everyone has six parents, my immediate thought is what it would be like to be an orphan there, that sort of thing. When I'm starting something, it's the cracks I'm looking at.

In my dialogue with Michael Swanwick, which other people seem to have enjoyed, and which was very interesting when we were talking in detail about Hope Mirlees (who was a close friend of T.S. Eliot -- who knew? Can you imagine him reading Lud in the Mist?) we were talking about the undefended frontier between SF and F, where Anderson's "The Queen of Air and Darkness" and "Semley's Necklace" are. We also talked about how SF tends to be embarrassing when it approaches the numinous, whereas that's what Fantasy is trying to do, and can do well. He thinks Stations of the Tide is fantasy and The Iron Dragon's Daughter is SF -- and people think I'm weird because I don't think T&C is entirely FoM! I need to think more about that undefended frontier, because the other one is heavily defended with giant robots on one side and wizards on the other.

I cited quite a few of you on panels, I quoted [info]coffeeandink on the FoM panel, and [info]calanthe_b on the Gods one, and [info]truepenny several times.

On the Gods panel, which was packed, with all the superstars appearing on it, I was interested to see that everyone else except Lois Bujold seemed to see having gods in the text, gods as characters, as opposed to part of religion, as far more of a problem than I do. I don't know why this is. Nine and sixty ways, I suppose.

The character panel went better than I was expecting, mainly because the moderator was much happier with answers like "Lots" to the question "How many characters are in your story" than I was expecting. I tried not to admit to anything like hearing them talk in my head.

The rejection letter panel went well, though it was really a reprise of Teresa's Slushkiller thread.

I was on two Tolkien panels, one at the beginning and one near the end. The first one included a guy called Daniel Grotta, who thought Tolkien was a manichean. I don't often get to say "balderdash". I was very good and resisted all little jhereg voices asking if we could kill him, now, boss... when it came to the summing up, I said "Let Daniel go first, so I can just disagree with him", but it was all very civilized really. The other one was when we were all tired and a little silly, but went quite well anyway. The interesting point was that in order to have real loss, real grief, you need real joy too. I think this is why I don't like Donaldson -- and the reverse is why I don't like, don't read, a lot of fantasy.

My reading was terrific, everyone liked it, the timing was right, there were quite a lot of people -- I didn't count, but the room was quite well filled -- the questions were intelligent and nobody demanded more dragons instead. I read chapter 2 of Farthing, now tentatively scheduled for the end of 2005.

My kaffeeklatch only had three people, though they were all interesting so it didn't matter. Next time, I don't think I'll bother. When another author was telling me he only had five people for his reading, I consoled him with my three for kaffeeklatch story and he said "But one of the five at my reading fell asleep!"


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[info]nolly
2004-09-09 10:44 am UTC (link)
Sometimes falling asleep has more to do with Fear Of Missing Something than the presentation itself -- I remember struggling to stay awake during a Pratchett reading at my first Worldcon, which clearly had nothing to do with any sort of lack in the material and everything to do with way too little sleep on my part.

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[info]papersky
2004-09-09 10:49 am UTC (link)
I'm absolutely positive it was that, and so I informed the poor unfortunate person it happened to -- but all the same, oh dear!

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[info]nolly
2004-09-09 11:18 am UTC (link)
Indeed!

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[info]mnemex
2004-09-09 10:58 am UTC (link)
Have to agree that having gods as character within your story isn't a problem. Wiat, was Pratchett on that one? He certainly uses them as characters often enough...

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[info]papersky
2004-09-10 04:24 am UTC (link)
He wasn't on that one.

It is a problem, because of the free will/incredible power situation, but I think it's a much more surmountable problem than some people seem to.

It was a terrific panel, the only one in this con where I felt we could easily have gone on for another hour.

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[info]mnemex
2004-09-10 07:09 am UTC (link)
Ah. Ok, that makes sense, I just figured he would have had a different answer had he been on it.
It's certainly an -interesting- problem (using "problem" differently than I was in my first comment), but yes, decidedly surmountable in various ways.

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[info]kate_nepveu
2004-09-10 06:50 am UTC (link)
I think Pratchett has a similar approach as Pierce, pantheons of limited and quarreling gods, so that was mentioned.

Someone, and I can't think who right now, has said that they treat the appearance of (incredibly powerful character) as a really expensive guest star on a TV show or a movie: every minute has to count, and they can only appear for a very good reason.

(Actually, I think this might have been in reference to Martin Sheen on _The West Wing_, at least in its early days. But I think it would work for gods too.)

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[info]mnemex
2004-09-10 07:12 am UTC (link)
Pratchett uses that, but also uses the "consensus reality"-type god whose power is fueled by belief. Small Gods does some interesting things with this while using a god as a protagonist.

I've heard the "guest star" thing before, and it does make sense, for a variety of major figures (I think it's been said about both gods and early WW Martin Sheen).

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[info]ckd
2004-09-09 11:22 am UTC (link)
I considered going to your kaffeeklatsch, but my schedule got in the way (and I'd already had time to talk to you, so I was figuring to let other people have a chance). Please do consider having another sometime, especially if Montreal wins their bid! If it makes you feel any better, I know at least one had nobody sign up, which is sad.

For that matter, you could just do more teaklatsches. Next time I'm actually staying at a con, rather than commuting, I may do one myself, though I greatly fear my ability to pull in as interesting a group as you did is lacking.

[info]mabfan's kaffeeklatsch was fun; not counting [info]gnomi, there were only four of us, and he knew us all; this meant that the first part of the klatsch was like one of those LJ "ask me about someone on my friends list and I'll tell you about them" meme posts.

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[info]papersky
2004-09-10 04:27 am UTC (link)
I had more people at my MilPhil kaffeeklatch, but that wasn't at 10am on Sunday!

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[info]baldanders
2004-09-09 11:29 am UTC (link)

to have real loss, real grief, you need real joy too. I think this is why I don't like Donaldson

Have you read the Mordant's Need books? I think those two -- one long novel, really -- do achieve that balance.

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[info]papersky
2004-09-09 11:41 am UTC (link)
Yes, I have read them, and you're right it was the Covenant books I meant. I can't say I really like the Mordant's Need books, but I agree that that isn't what's wrong with them. (What's wrong with them is that nobody ever talks to anyone else, for no reason, so things don't get discovered because people are idiots. Also the girl is an idiot. And the hero too.)

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[info]malkingrey
2004-09-09 11:31 am UTC (link)
I just have to say that I owe both you and Greer a tremendous favor for allowing yourselves to be shanghaied for the Anglo-Saxon thing. At 9:30 on a Friday morning at Worldcon, any audience I got for that was going to be composed of the seriously hard core -- I mean, under what other circumstances could you ask a room full of 25 or 30 people, "Just to make certain we're all on the same page here, how many of you have read Boethius?" and see a veritable thicket of upraised hands?

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[info]veejane
2004-09-09 01:05 pm UTC (link)
Ha! I'm very sorry I missed that panel. (I worked that morning.)

Any chance you've got a reading list relating to the panel? If someone's written up the conversation in depth, I haven't seen it yet.

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[info]papersky
2004-09-09 02:24 pm UTC (link)
I'd say the reading list for that one would be The Lord of the Rings, King Alfred's translation of Boethius, Beowulf, The Wanderer, Auden's translation of The Wanderer ("Doom is dark, and deeper than any sea-dingle, upon what man it fall"), The Anglo-Saxon Chronicle, Swanton's Anglo Saxon Prose and Alexander's The Earliest English Poems.

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[info]fairmer
2004-09-09 01:21 pm UTC (link)
(laugh) I related that anecdote to someone yesterday. Your expression when our hands all shot up was priceless.

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[info]papersky
2004-09-09 02:18 pm UTC (link)
I'd estimate that of the thirty or forty people in the room, only about four hands didn't go up. Debra could have drafted the whole lot of you onto the panel.

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Fantasy of Manners
[info]roozle
2004-09-09 12:20 pm UTC (link)
Could you post a link to one of the writeups of that panel? I really planned to be there -- I just woke up halfway through it!

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Re: Fantasy of Manners
[info]cheshyre
2004-09-09 12:29 pm UTC (link)
http://noreascon4.blogs.com/live/2004/09/panel_report_fa.html

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Re: Fantasy of Manners
[info]kate_nepveu
2004-09-09 12:37 pm UTC (link)
Mine: http://noreascon4.blogs.com/live/2004/09/panel_report_fa.html

Oracne's: http://www.livejournal.com/users/oracne/509815.html

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[info]cheshyre
2004-09-09 12:35 pm UTC (link)
Reading [info]fairmer's account of the princess panel reminds me of a thought that occurred to me during the cliche panel, but they ran out of time before getting to my question.

This is an SF trope: why do scientists (good and evil) only ever seem to have daughters and not sons? My guess is some belief that a daughter would stay home to take care of her father, while sons are presumed to be out among the world. Or that daughters are more likely to explain things to the hero(es). Just an idle observation...

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[info]papersky
2004-09-09 12:42 pm UTC (link)
You should have asked Dr. Mike, because he'd have probably had some great scientific answer.

I think the cliche thematic reason is because otherwise those stories wouldn't have any girls in at all, and it's always useful having a girl to a) look cute and b) ask dumb questions and scream and c) be someone for the hero to rescue and aspire to. A son is a rival.

I have part of a story about a boy whose sister becomes an Evil Empress which would turn a lot of this stuff upside-down.

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[info]supergee
2004-09-09 12:46 pm UTC (link)
Ursula Le Guin admits to hearing her characters talk in her head.

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[info]marykaykare
2004-09-09 01:21 pm UTC (link)
All sorts of characters and other people too have conversations in my head frequently. Sometimes they include me in.

Speaking of including in: would you believe we had dinner twice and still I'm jealous of all the people who got to go to teaparties! Some people are just never satisfied.

I hated having to miss the FoM panel, I think I was on another panel at the same time. The only panel I got to other than the ones I was one was the first Tolkien panel you mention. Really, if you'd gone with the jhereg voices, everyone would have understood.

I swear, next Worldcon I'm doing less. Not that I didn't have a good time...

MKK

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[info]ckd
2004-09-10 01:43 am UTC (link)
Hey, I'm jealous of the dinner people. I have to learn to accept that I can't do all the stuff I would like to at any con, or meet all of the people I want to, etc...and enjoy what I do get to do.

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[info]marith
2004-09-09 02:58 pm UTC (link)
Sounds like a fabulous con. *jealouses briefly*

(What's wrong with your characters talking in your head? )

But mostly this post is to thank you for pinpointing why I never reread the Covenant books despite liking bits of them. The inhabitants of the Land feel joy sometimes, but the main character never does; it's all slough of despair to him.

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[info]rushthatspeaks
2004-09-09 03:13 pm UTC (link)
Not only that, it's a *boring* slough of despair. I gave up halfway through the first Thomas Covenant book on that account.

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[info]snippy
2004-09-09 03:26 pm UTC (link)
At least it wasn't kif talking in your head.

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[info]wild_patience
2004-09-09 07:24 pm UTC (link)
Daniel Grotta was there? He wrote a rather book on Tolkien decades ago -- someone gave me a remaindered copy around 1980. I had no idea he was still around.

I'm sorry to have missed the Gods panel. I love what Bujold has done in the Chalion books.

And I'm glad to hear Tooth and Claw will be coming out in pb soon. I'll probably get it from the library before then, but I'd like to suggest it for our book group and paperbacks are preferable for economic reasons.

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[info]calimac
2005-04-13 07:23 am UTC (link)
I know this post is months old, but I just came across it while browsing around in archives, and couldn't resist responding to this remark of yours:

"The first one included a guy called Daniel Grotta, who thought Tolkien was a manichean. I don't often get to say "balderdash".

Daniel Grotta, who wrote the first published biography of Tolkien, was a leading purveyor of Tolkienian balderdash in the 1970s. His book contains a line which for many years was the record-holder as the most incompetent single sentence on Tolkien ever published. It's on p. 166 of the 1978 edition of his book, refers to the "Of the Rings of Power" section of The Silmarillion, and reads - unchanged in all later printings that I've seen - and I quote:

"Frodo is briefly mentioned too, not as a Hobbit but as one of the Mithrandir, or Halfings."

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